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Implant extraction? & other questions

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amal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Implant extraction? & other questions
    Posted: 23 June 2012 at 9:57am
Hey there,

I removed my HITAG S because I was just not using it as much as I would have liked. The HITAG S has a crypto-security model that is not supported by many readers out there, so finding cheap reader hardware I could easily integrate into projects left me with little choice. 

If you are wanting to store passwords in your HITAG S securely, it doesn't have to be 100% security through obscurity... the HITAG S supports a crypto model that can protect it's memory contents with a 40 bit cipher key. That doesn't seem like much, but it's plenty when it comes to implants because an attacker typically needs access to the tag for a serious amount of time in order to crack the cipher. If you have the right kind of hardware, you can implement key protection on the memory blocks and actually have a small amount of real security than the STO model :)
Amal ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deny_conformity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2012 at 12:58am
Hey Amal,

Just a quick couple of questions, Why did you feel like replacing the HiTag? And what did you replace it with?

I'm thinking of getting a HiTag S in each hand and using them for storing passwords "securely" (security more through obscurity), the roughly 256 bytes of storage available in each should be plenty of space for a few semi-random passwords (if I can find a portable reader that works with them)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FourQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2012 at 12:56pm
I was hoping the HITAG S 2048 would allow the tag's ID to be rewritten.  Unfortunately, as you mentioned, it's only the data blocks that allow rewritable access.

I'll keep your offer in mind though, thanks.  The only thing that puts me off the HITAG is that it's 2x12mm and I have enough trouble getting a read from a 3x13mm E4102.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2012 at 12:54pm
Hey Q,

Do you have two tags already (one in each hand)? Just curious why you're considering replacing the tag you have?

If you want to buy the tag that was in my right hand, you're welcome to it :) $25 shipped (in a standard letter envelope).
Amal ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FourQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2012 at 6:22am
Thanks for the quick reply mate.

I knew I'd have to go private for it.  I don't want to, but I knew it would need to be done.

Interesting photoset you have there.  My girlfriend didn't want too see them (she turns away when watching Casualty).  I'd love to see them on somewhere like Tumblr. ;)

The thing is, the tag in my right hand is slightly deeper than the one in my left.  I sometimes have difficulty getting a read from my right hand.  I'm hoping that's not going to be an issue.  I wouldn't like to think it's going to complicate things for the surgeon.  Most of all I don't want to risk losing any mobility in my hand!

I think the real draw to having it done is that the HITAG can be programmed to emulate the E4102 and can be rewritten.  I'd thought about having one implanted in the beginning but I hadn't read up enough about the HITAG.  Too much to take in at once and I suspect I've made a hasty decision.  Either that or the excitement about having it done clouded my thinking.  Not something I' eager to repeat.

Hopefully, in time, I'll have the funds to get one ordered and have it done.  I'm now looking at procuring the tag.  Once I have that I'll look at the surgery and the reader/writer.

Thanks again.

Q
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2012 at 9:06pm
Hey FourQ, no prob on the bump... I actually have new info to add to this convo.

I had the HITAG in my right hand removed and replaced with a different tag. The procedure involved over 20 minutes of the doctor struggling to angle the implant and work the forceps to make a path for the implant to slide out of. Since I had 5+ years of working the implant up so people could see it, after 20 minutes of digging around, I offered to have a glove put on my left hand and work the implant for him. Within a minute we had it out. I was very happy that I chose to use an implant that had no anti-migration "biobond" coating on it, otherwise it would have taken some serious cutting to get it out.

The implant had been wrapped in a very small but extremely strong cocoon of connective tissue, and trust me it was tough! Obviously the forceps cannot be used to actually grab the glass tag (it would shatter), so they were mostly used to spread tissue and gently scrape away connective tissue from the "top" of the glass tag that I was trying to push out of the incision site.

I would have liked to put the new replacement tag into the old tag's "pocket", but the doctor advised against it, so his used an injector to place the new one adjacent to the old implant site.

With all the digging around, I thought my hand would have been really sore, but I had no problems at all. Within a day or two, the incision sealed itself tight, and from then on the normal healing process was no different from if I had gotten a scrape there. I can say though that I could feel "lumpy" scar tissue in the old implant site area for weeks, but now it's pretty much resolved itself.

Here's a new flickr photo set of the removal and replacement: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28129213@N00/sets/72157629557979650/

If I had to do it again, I would have had the doc provide me with a "health grade" surgery pen and I would have marked exactly where the implant was. I would have also pushed the implant up and marked where the "top" of it pokes up under the skin when I push it from underneath. I also would have insisted from the get-go that I be gloved up on my other hand so I could immediately assist. Finally, I would have had the incision made exactly where the implant "head" pops up under the skin. My doc cut about a millimeter away from that spot and I think it caused some of the frustration.

I hope this helps!
Amal ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FourQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2012 at 12:52pm
Sorry to bump an old thread but I'm spending a little time exploring the thoughts of replacing an implanted E4102 3x13 tag with a HITAG S.  Obviously I'd need the E4102 extracted, buy a HITAG, a reader/writer etc.  At this stage it's nothing more than me wildly fantasising about having it done but if I'm to do it I'd like the logistics of extraction, procurement etc. resolved first.

The trouble is, I have no idea how I'd get it out - I had enough trouble getting it in (done at a piercing studio). 

I guess I'm hoping for a little brainstorming here.  Any ideas anyone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 11:02am
Unfortunately I don't have any further written information. You could search this forum, I'm sure there are plenty of posts regarding the HITAG chip.

I've not bothered to document building a door lock with a HITAG chip because it's more complex than an EM4102 and usually requires either an expensive reader that will do some internal processing for you (paired with a microprocessor/microcontroller), or a PC that can run supporting drivers/software.

Amal ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 August 2008 at 9:59am
Thanks Amal. Greatly appreciate your reply. Do you have any links to information you or others have written that explains more about the HITAG chips? I'm looking for a basic tutorial on how I would go about implementing a secure door lock with a HITAG, and hopefully information on where to find (or how to build) the necessary equipment.

Thank you again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:59pm

Originally posted by Ryan Ryan wrote:

1. Can you feel the chip inside your hand?

2. Is there a possibility of breaking the chip while it's in your hand? For example, when putting extreme pressure on a wrench or other tool?

3. Would this be difficult to extract, without leaving scars on my hand? I'm into this, but I also know damn well there will be something better available 10 years down the road and I'd like to upgrade without it being a big deal. I'd assume a surgeon could extract it right out the same hole location it went in with little difficulty? Has anyone asked their doctor this question?

4. Unrelated, but can someone tell me more about the HITAG 2048 S & it's features, and what you use it for. I am very, very interested in this.

Hi Ryan,

1) Only if I poke at it with my finger. Some people place their implants in areas where they come up against bone and/or tendons and I'm sure they feel their implants ever day, but because of the area in my hands I choose I forget they are even there until I go to use them.

2) Always test the tag you want to implant first. Most of the DIY implanting going on use EM4102 or HITAG tags, and these are not meant for implantation, so the quality of glass or epoxy fill might not be the same as tags meant for implantation into animals (FriendChip/AVID/etc.) or humans (VeriChip). I did some simple stress tests on the tags I was planning on using (bought extras for testing) and I was satisfied that if my hand ever received the amount of direct blunt force to the implant area of my hand required to break the tag, some broken glass in my hand would be the least of my worries. The fact is, it will always be possible to break these tags with a serious enough impact, but I highly doubt you will be able to stress the implant into breaking by turning a wrench or clenching your hands. If you placed the implant in the same area of your body that I did, your skin would probably rip before the glass broke.

3) This all depends on what type of tag you implant and where. If you implant a DIY style glass tag with no anti-migration coating, and you place it just under the dermis (skin) layer, then removal/replacement would be a snap, with minimal scarring. You'd probably have a very small (1mm to 2mm) scar from the scalpel incision needed to remove the implant.

If you implant an animal/human tag with an anti-migration coating, depending on the coating you could require a larger incision and more flesh cutting/tearing to get the implant out. An anti-migration coating is designed to "lock" the implant in place by allowing tissue to grow into it's porous surface, stopping the implant from moving around. This obviously makes it a little more difficult to remove, resulting in a larger skin scar and a little bit of internal tissue scarring.

If you get an FDA approved VeriChip implanted deep into your arm muscle, the implant is designed to be permanent (even states so in their product documentation). Removal of this type of tag is difficult because it too has an anti-migration coating, or in VeriChip's case a special "cup" the tag sits in. It's implant dept also makes removal difficult because you need a larger incision and a lot of pushing aside and/or cutting of tissue to get to the tag. Once located, the tag will have to be cut out, or removed from the anti-migration "cup" it sits in. If they remove the tag from the AM-cup, it's likely they would just leave the cup inside you, which I wouldn't be happy with... especially with concerns over the cancerous growths this coating/cup may cause.

4) The Philips HITAG 2048 S tag is typically a 134KHz passive tag with a 2048 bits separated into read/write memory blocks. It also has limited but functional 40 bit cryptosecurity features built in. You can program the tag to function in one of several "modes", giving the tag a lot of flexibility. I use this tag in my right hand for experimenting with mostly, but on occasion I use it as a more secure method of identifying myself in situations/projects where higher security levels are necessary.

Amal ;)

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